S2E37 – Remote Work, Boundless Burnout? – Tactics for Tech Leadership Podcast

Show Notes

Is remote work a burnout trap or a path to freedom? There are good reasons to suspect that remote work may be highly correlated to increased burnout and many may be reinforced by our own experiences or that of our friends and colleagues. But is this hypothesis supported by research and, if so, what does it mean for designing human-centric remote work policies?

Join co-hosts Andy and Mon-Chaio as they delve into the complexities of remote work and burnout. They explore how personality traits influence burnout and tackle the paradox of designing work environments: less effective setups with low burnout versus highly effective, high-burnout environments. They also highlight the tricky balance between collaborative work in successful companies and the need for personal autonomy. Tune in to uncover insights and strategies for navigating these challenges in the remote work era.

References

Transcript

Mon-Chaio: Welcome back, everyone. Thanks for joining Andy and I again as we talk about burnout on this episode of the TTL Podcast, uh, again, but we are talking about it today for a couple of reasons. One, as we ended the last burnout episode, I got it in my mind and I said, hey, we did something on remote work and we did something on burnout. There seems to be correlated factors in the background. Is there a relationship between remote work and burnout? And I think you, Andy, mentioned, is that something that you yourself felt during the pandemic around working remotely and maybe leading to burnout?

Andy: Yeah. Yeah. So I was thinking from my own experience, personally, I do find remote work more draining. And during the pandemic, I found it even more draining. Now there’s many factors that we’ll probably get into about that. But I had, I had a hypothesis. I actually had a directional hypothesis, which is specifically that remote work will lead to more burnout. So that’s what I was researching as I got prepared for this episode.

Mon-Chaio: And I had a suspicion that that was what you were researching I mean we did kind of talk about it and we said hey, this is probably the research direction And since I felt like you were going to do a pretty good job there. I went in a slightly different direction in my research, which was to try and find more evidence of correlating factors.

When we did the burnout episode, we talked about a bunch of factors that correlated strongly with burnout. Things like increased stress, decreased autonomy, decreased social support, that sort of a thing. And so instead of looking for a research with direct correlation specifically between burnout and remote work, and using those as perhaps mediating factors, I instead tried to connect remote work with those factors directly.

So, does remote work lead to more stress, lead to lower social support, lead to less autonomy? So that was the way that I went about it. And I think we found sort of different conclusions based on our work there. And that, I believe, might be the most interesting thing that we get into in this episode.

Andy: Yeah. Yeah. So just to say the lead right now of what I found. What I found was that the results are mixed. It is not absolutely conclusive that remote work leads to burnout or absolutely conclusive that remote work does not lead to burnout. So, that’s kind of what I found, but I will also say on what you were just saying, a lot of them were not directly looking for what we talked about as burnout last time.

Some of them did. Some of them did use like the Maslach inventory or some of the other inventories, but a lot of them were looking at stress and autonomy and doing the kind of like, well, those things are about burnout. And then I read the article and be like, it’s kind of, but not quite.

Mon-Chaio: Mm hmm. But there was a small conclusion, yes, if not a large conclusion from your meta study of these papers?

Andy: Yeah. So I would say that the most consistent thing was that remote work does not lead to increased burnout, but there is a particular personality trait that I guess you could call a mediating factor, which was neuroticism. And I believe in the burnout episode or one of our other episodes, we talked about the Big Five personality traits.

And one of them is neuroticism. So this was a research paper where they were looking at this particular model of the way that people perceive the world and it’s demand-control-person. What are the demands on them, what kind of control over their environment do they have , and who’s the person?

Mon-Chaio: Mm hmm.

Andy: And what they found was neuroticism, which they reference as low emotional stability, neuroticism, in remote work, will lead to more burnout. So if you already are emotionally unstable and you have all sorts of issues, you might end up with more burnout than someone who is emotionally stable. Those people will actually be fine. In fact, they’ll have lower burnout than if they’re in office. So someone who is low neurotic will have less burnout remote than they will in office.

Mon-Chaio: So, does that mean that I’m highly neurotic, Andy?

Andy: I was actually thinking about this. I was like, well, am I highly neurotic? And I don’t remember my Big Five scores. I should retake the test at some point and check. I thought I was fairly low on neuroticism. I get told by people sometimes that I’m very Zen. And usually my response to them is I’m screaming inside.

Mon-Chaio: Right! So that’s an interesting study. I did not read the study fully, but I think that does correlate to some of the things that we’ve seen in the past. Things like creating learning organizations, where the type of personality has a direct impact on how successful a lot of those initiatives are.

Andy: Yeah. And another factor in the success of remote work, and you’re going to love this Mon-Chaio, is autonomy.

Mon-Chaio: Mm hmm.

Andy: So if you had no autonomy, that was also more likely to lead to job burnout than if you had high autonomy. This actually got me thinking though, and I tried to look up what they were using to measure autonomy, and the autonomy was very much at a personal level. Like, as an individual, I have control over the work I do, and those kinds of things.

Which, important, but to me, in a software team, in a team environment, what are the effects of autonomy if … Say we’re an XP team, where it’s like, oh, we pair all the time and all that. Would people be reporting high autonomy or low autonomy? I would report somewhere in the middle because it’s like, yes, I have autonomy about what I do to some extent, but it’s a lot of negotiation with others about what I need to be doing.

Mon-Chaio: And it’s also a mindset thing, Andy, isn’t it? For me, oftentimes when I think about autonomy, or if people ask me questions about autonomy, I don’t tend to think about my personal autonomy. I tend to think about, well, this team is trying to deliver something. Do we have autonomy to do what we need to do? And do I then, within that boundary, have autonomy to do what I need to do in order to increase the team’s autonomy?

Andy: Oh, interesting. So the key in it is what is your perception of your autonomy? If your perception is that you have low autonomy because you need to work with this team, you could be working in the exact same team, but your view on it is I have low autonomy because this team keeps telling me what to do and I want to just be given my task and I can walk away and do it. But the team around you is thinking that, well, they have autonomy as a group and that’s how they feel like they’re achieving their autonomy, by making sure that they understand what’s going on and all of that.

And if that’s your perception of autonomy, then someone going off and just working on their own thing on their own might feel like a loss of autonomy. Because you’ve lost information about how do you behave and what should you be doing.

Mon-Chaio: Absolutely. And as a reminder to listeners, autonomy is one of the predictors of burnout, as we mentioned in our burnout episode. And so talking about autonomy with regard to burnout is really important. And what you just mentioned, Andy, this concept of individual autonomy versus team autonomy is something that I see and hear a lot anecdotally.

I don’t know if you hear a lot of this anecdotally, but I have been in organizations and had friends talk about how they feel more productive. And remember in our remote work episode we talked a lot about the difference between feeling more productive and objective measures of productivity. They have said they feel more productive and feel more autonomous than when they’re in the office. And often that is because of things such as: I don’t have people bothering me when I’m trying to get my work done; I don’t have to attend useless meetings; there’s not noise around me; I can set my own schedule, so if I need to go to the doctor’s, I can go in the middle of the day, and then get my work done at night.

Andy: Mmm hmm.

Mon-Chaio: Now, this isn’t all of the signal, but a lot of the signal that I hear is around that. And wouldn’t you say, Andy, that that is sort of more of a personal autonomy signal?

Andy: I would say, and that is actually the kind of autonomy referenced in this paper. So I’ll just read a small section of it, which is, it says: ” Although workers may perceive they have greater autonomy given their flexibility in choosing where they work …”, as you were saying Mon-Chaio, “… they may still have limited autonomy regarding how they accomplish tasks. The level of autonomy can vary based on job level, e. g. manager versus team member, and across employers, as some employers provide more specific and detailed task requirements, performance standards, and electronic monitoring processes when employees work remotely compared to on site workers.” Yeah, that’s the whole thing about the spyware on your computer.

Mon-Chaio: Mm hmm.

Andy: But I think I’ve seen, especially that, the different approaches to how you split up work, where I’ve seen some teams that they just write like such detailed descriptions of you’re going to do this and you’re going to do that. And for me personally, when I’m watching those teams or working with those teams, I feel like there’s no autonomy.

But what’s fascinating is often a lot of people on those teams, they feel like that gives them complete autonomy.

Mon-Chaio: And that affects their own feeling of burnout. Because burnout is a feeling that you feel. It is not some sort of universal feeling that gets struck upon you by Zeus’s lightning bolt or whatever. And so if you value this idea of quiet time, I have a specific set of things, I know what I’m going to do, other people can’t influence my productivity, then stuff like what you were talking about where you write out detailed descriptions of everything everyone is supposed to do and then they go off and do it, those people are going to feel more autonomous. And if remote work trends toward that, as we’ve talked about, then people are going to feel less burnt out.

Andy: Yeah. And I was just thinking of like the description that we found of how GitLab works. Which, we didn’t have huge amounts of detail, but our deduction from what we heard was that they had this approach of complete decomposition of a goal into the tasks, into the subtasks, into the individual people, where everything was independent and worked on, and then somehow brought back together.

I wonder if the work approach that we could identify here is if you’re task focused and your workplace breaks things down into small tasks, then you will feel less burnout in remote work. And, and, and you’re not neurotic if you, you’re low on the neuroticism. If you are outcome focused … because I think I’m usually fairly outcome focused, and when I get a particular task, and the task seems at odds of achieving the outcome in a more optimal way, I actually get very frustrated with the task, and I’ll throw the task away, and I’ll create a different task, and I’ve discovered some people find that very troubling.

They’re like, but that was the task. I was like, I don’t care, my task is to get that outcome. So I’ll swap that task out for something else that makes more sense. But if I’m outcome focused, then that kind of like friction or interacting with people who are not outcome focused and are more task focused will give me the impression of having less autonomy.

So it would be that mixture. You can either have a team that is primarily outcome focused and you’ll be fine, or you can have a team that’s primarily task focused and you’ll be fine. But if you start mixing them, the individual perceptions will start being that they don’t have as much autonomy.

Mon-Chaio: Specifically around the autonomy attribute, I would agree with that. And I’ll ask Andy, the papers that you found, what field were they studying?

Andy: So in this paper, actually they don’t say who they got information from because they used one of these research sites where you can give rewards or points for people to fill out surveys. So that’s where they got their data for one part of their system. The other part they sampled 145 full time professional employees from three southern U. S. organizations, an engineering firm, a technology firm, and a local government agency, representing human resource personnel, knowledge workers such as engineers and technology architects, administrative support personnel, and line managers. And once an online survey. So they did a first one with kind of random person on the internet who’s filling it out to get some rewards. And then they did a second one to double check. Which, actually, kind of makes up for the random people on the internet.

Mon-Chaio: Yeah.

Andy: Um …

Mon-Chaio: And I ask that because I think that there are many jobs where outcome focused and individual autonomy are going to be highly correlated even for effective performance. So, I will pause it, and I will first state my naivety here. I am not a salesperson or a marketing person or any sort of that type of person, so I can only guess.

But my guess would be somebody like a customer support person. Probably having outcome focused goals still allows them to be personally autonomous, because often those goals. only depend on the work that they do. And I mention customer support because there is a very famous study around remote work from a Chinese company that primarily does call center customer support stuff which we reference in our remote work series. And so if you might imagine you’re a customer support person, you don’t have to be given task level things like answer 17 phone calls a day. You can be. That might allow you to be personally autonomous. But you can be given high level goals, things like ensure 90 percent of your customers are satisfied.

Andy: Mmm, mmm hmm.

Mon-Chaio: And yet, that still does not require you to collaborate with other folks, and you can still set your own hours, and that still effectively contributes to your goal. And so I think there are places and disciplines where that makes a lot of sense. There are places also like GitLab where apparently software is produced in that manner as well. The individual goals that you have are, again, these are not outcome based goals, but they’re individual goals , and that allows you to have some personal autonomy. But I think we would both say that for the majority of types of software that are produced, an organization that decomposes down to task-level goals in order to create individual autonomy, as a whole is more likely to be less effective and less productive than an organization which has outcome goals which require deep collaboration.

Would you say that to be true?

Andy: I believe that to be true. And I think that’s an important thing to keep in mind that we’re talking about the correlation to burnout, not the correlation to effectiveness. Just because people are getting less burnout doesn’t mean that they’re being more effective necessarily.

Mon-Chaio: Well, and one of the papers that I found, I wrote this as an aside because it’s not completely related to burnout, but I want to read a quote. It says: “Several challenges, for example, including geographical, temporal, cultural, and linguistic dispersion and best practices or practical solutions, for example, Agile methods, test-driven development, frequent site visits, and face to face meetings, have been identified for traditional distributed software development teams.” These are best practices. Now we can disagree as to whether those are actually best practices or not, but at least one meta study has listed a number of studies that mention that these are the best practices for distributed teams. Now this is around effectiveness. Right? But maybe, in order to be an effective team, these practices can lead to more burnout. Because as we know, collaboration in remote settings is much more difficult. You would imagine that there’s higher levels of stress.

Andy: Mm hmm.

Mon-Chaio: There are papers that I found which said when people move to remote, they tend to insularize, so they have more interactions with their inner team and fewer interactions with their peer teams. Which we know from – what episode was it that we know that from, maybe learning organizations? – that the cross-team connections are the most important ones to build for effective performance versus the intra team connections.

Andy: Yeah, so there’s this trade off happening that people are reacting to their environment, seeking that increase in personal autonomy, and that helps them achieve lower burnout. Good outcome. There could be a trade off going on, which is that those things are leaving behind that inter-team dependency, that inter-team collaboration. And if they take it to an extreme, possibly even intra-team collaboration, as we were talking about, if they turn it into an individual tasks all the way down. And they’re also possibly leaving behind some of the practical solutions, as this one said, of frequent site visits, face to face meetings, which produce more effectiveness. Interesting!

One thing I found interesting in the research I was finding was … I thought, okay, we’ll have tons of research about this because we just went through the COVID pandemic. And the answer is we had some research about this, but then as I read it, I realized it’s not useful research. It’s not really all that useful for the question that we’re trying to ask because it’s got so many confounding factors going on, that, for the most part, we cannot take 2020 and 2021 as a normal state of affairs for whether or not remote work leads to burnout. Because one thing I found was they were looking at burnout on remote teams. It was actually quite a large study. I think they had close to 1, 500 respondents to what they were looking at.

And what they were finding was, it’s what they called social media communication created more intensity of the work. And that was relating to higher stress at work. But what they also found was that for the people who had been working in that fashion before the pandemic, there wasn’t as much of a pronounced change. And so their conclusion is, basically you need to know how to do this. And so if we pay too much attention to burnout correlations and those kinds of things that were happening during that time, it may look like, doing certain things just produces stress and other stuff.

But, like, hey, there was a pandemic going on!

Mon-Chaio: And then we get into, again, that mindset part of things, right? I remember – this was almost 15 years ago, maybe 20 years ago now – I was leading a team and making them do forced pair programming for about a month before we reassessed and they could vote whether they wanted to continue. And one of the team members said, I’ve never been so tired in my life. Now, is that a good thing or is that a bad thing? Right? These are the trade offs and I think personality does play into it as well. Perhaps if you enjoy collaborating, maybe that doesn’t make you as tired. Maybe if you’re an extrovert, maybe that doesn’t make you as tired. I don’t know, right? But I think it’s definitely difficult to just make a statement around whether remote work causes more burnout or doesn’t cause more burnout just because of all these other confounding factors, not even just that COVID time. But as we’ve talked about, are you a collaborative company? Are you not? What type of work do you do?

Andy: Yeah. What kind of person are you? Going back to the neuroticism trait. So there’s many factors that seem to play into this.

Mon-Chaio: And so given that, what do we think, Andy? Because people come on here for us to tell them exactly what they should do and think.

Andy: No!

Mon-Chaio: That’s right!

Andy: Uhh, I I think the insight that I came away from this with was, and it’s not groundbreaking, it’s like personality trait matters. Different people will react to this in different ways. The biggest one is that neuroticism trait: how highly strung are you, how relaxed can you be, how much do you dwell on things? That kind of thing. And the other one is, how much does your work environment allow you autonomy to make use of that remote working? Or is it like you have no choice about what you do and so the remote work doesn’t help you.

So to me, it was those two things and then the kind of interactions between them , that’s what I get out of this. And so for people listening, I think it gives a way of looking at yourself as a leader, looking at the people on your team, and using that as a way of thinking about, like, is my setup, is our way of doing work going to create burnout? Could we be more effective in the office? And do the personalities that I have available to me lend themselves to doing this?

Mon-Chaio: I like that. I think what I would say to listeners here is also not earth shattering. Is there another term I could use?

Andy: Tremor inducing?

Mon-Chaio: Tremor inducing. Novel.

Andy: That’s a good one.

Mon-Chaio: It’s simply that there are these trade offs and I think it’s important to hear over and over again, even if it isn’t a novel idea, it’s important to hear again. Because what I see a lot at companies I’ve worked in and companies I’ve consulted for is that they make these trade offs without understanding what the other side of the equation is. We talked about that a lot in the remote work episode where they said people wanted more autonomy and so companies started making work less and less collaborative because remote tools made collaboration more difficult. And so that leads to better surveys from people around autonomy, around their ability to accomplish work. But does it make the company itself more effective at delivering value to the market?

That’s a difficult thing to measure and I can understand why companies are hesitant to take something so difficult to measure and use it and say, well, we’re not going to do something y’all like because of this difficult to measure thing that I only have a gut feeling about, but it is a thing and there is research backing up that collaborative companies perform better in some measure of performance.

Andy: And on that, I would agree. I think my personal anecdotal observations align with what you’re saying. And so for me, the ideal form is actually that whole hybrid setup that people talk about, where I have that in person collaboration, but I have the autonomy to work from where I want, when that makes sense.

Mon-Chaio: To that point, I think you make a very nuanced distinction, which is hybrid work works, and there are studies that show that it works, but we have to understand why it works. And so, when you say you’re doing hybrid work, but then you allow everyone the autonomy to go into the office whenever they want, that is the wrong type of autonomy.

Because the reason hybrid work works works is because you build trust as a group when you’re together and you strengthen those intra-team ties and collaboration when you’re together. When hybrid work devolves into, I go into the office and I sit in a conference room by myself to have Zoom meetings all day …

Andy: Because no one else is there!

Mon-Chaio: … what is the point? And so yes, you do lose that individual autonomy. Well, I feel less autonomous because I have to be in on Wednesdays and Fridays and I have to be there from 10 to 4.

Andy: Well, and I think what I was thinking, so I’ll give a nuance to what I was thinking on what that hybrid is. And that hybrid would be like, well, no, we’re going to be all together three days a week in the office. But I do have the autonomy to say, one of those days, actually, I have a doctor’s appointment, so I’m going to work from home.

And it’s not every day. It’s not every Wednesday that that’s happening. But I’m still granted the allowance for my judgment about what will make this work.

Mon-Chaio: Right. Well, absolutely. I think judgment, look, you can’t take judgment away from employees and treat them like children and expect them to give their best to you, right? Companies also have to understand that employees can only exercise good judgment when they understand and buy into the cultures and values that you’ve set as a company.

Andy: And the trade offs and implications of different choices.

Mon-Chaio: That’s right! And so if you have an employee group that understands the importance, the critical importance of in person face to face and collaboration, then when a person makes a judgment call and says, hey, I have a doctor’s appointment. I really can’t get out of it. I have to take it on this day that everybody’s normally in the office. That ends up being okay. Whereas that same behavior for a person that hasn’t bought into the values, I don’t think is okay. Because for them, they’re not thinking about this as a trade off and it’s a one off. It’s just, I need flexibility. What’s the big deal?

Andy: Yeah.

Mon-Chaio: And I think the same thing can be said of what you might call surveillance software. I … don’t get me wrong, I am not a keystroke surveillance software person. I think that’s horrible. This idea of counting keystrokes or seeing how many emails you sent or how often you’re on your computer or presence detection, especially when it rolls up into reports, comes into metrics or whatever, I think that’s just irresponsible, immoral, i, I think that’s terrible.

I think that there are also other tools that, if they’re used for the right purpose, can strengthen team performance if you buy into the culture of it. So I think we, Andy, you and I have probably both used these in the past, uh, this was way before the pandemic. But when most people were in the office and remote employees were the exception, I’ve definitely had tools where I said, hey, we’re going to keep a camera on the entire engineering area and the remote worker, you’re going to keep your camera on the full time that you’re working.

Andy: Mm hmm.

Mon-Chaio: Now, we’re not saving your video and seeing how often you’re here, but that helps build this idea of presence. How busy are people? What are they up to? That strengthens the trust and working of a team, of a collaborative team, right? I’m not suggesting this happen for, again, customer service workers who don’t need collaborate, but that only works if everyone buys into that value.

Otherwise, it just seems like surveillance.

Andy: Yeah. Yeah, if you’re going into it with the idea of this is here because we all want to collaborate and have this quick interchange and understand if someone’s around so I can know if, can I, can I ask them a question right now? I don’t know. But if you’re not buying into that, if your mindset is, well no, we all work independently, we’re all autonomous, then it is surveillance. It’s that difference between that you’ve used your autonomy to decide to do this, versus it’s been imposed on you.

Mon-Chaio: Mm hmm. Right. I like that.

Andy: Yeah, I remember there was … when did I hear about this? I think around 2014 or so. I think it was when I was working at Puppet. There were a few different things about remote work and pairing and doing that thing. And I remember there was one tool that like every 10 seconds or so, would take a picture and then everyone on the team would have this kind of constant grid of a periodically updating picture of the other people and it did them in black and white and all of this stuff just to give the indication of, oh yeah, they are around, you can talk to them right now

Mon-Chaio: Mm hmm. And as I was thinking about this, I think those tools have fallen out of favor due to these terrible uses around surveillance.

Andy: Yeah.

Mon-Chaio: But, if you think about a well intentioned team, there might be room for tools that do screenshots too. And I was thinking, what parts would you blur? What parts not blur? Would you just give them a sense of the titles of the windows or, oh, it’s a browser window, or this person has two coding windows open or something. I don’t know what it is. But I do think as we move more towards collaborative remote work, this concept of presence sharing and understanding what your peers are up to regularly because you depend on them so much, I think is going to be important.

Andy: On that, one thing i have done, and this was a team that worked very collaboration heavy so it was almost constant pair programming and that kind of thing And basically, you just sat on a video call all day.

And you kept your mic closed, and then you had a question, you might just open your mic and say, Hey, I’m hitting this, anyone know what’s going on? And it’s much more immediate than Slack …

Mon-Chaio: Mm hmm.

Andy: … because Slack is inherently that – I think we’re getting way off topic here – but Slack is inherently that asynchronous thing, which is, people intentionally ignore it. But the point of being on the call was, no, you want to respond synchronously. You don’t want to be stuck. It’s not good for the team for you to be stuck. It’s better for the team that someone to get interrupted and unblock you.

Mon-Chaio: And to get even more off topic, this is similar to the way that I think about open office plans. A lot of people object to open office plans because they’re so noisy and they can’t concentrate and they have their headphones on. That is true and I think a lot of open office plans are that because they’re designed wrong. You should be open office for the people that need and should be listening to each other. And then there’s a personality trait there too, right? Maybe you should be listening to each other, but you don’t want to. Well, that’s a personality trait.

Andy: Which takes me back to when we worked together at CarDomain, that was still to me, one of the best office layouts that I’ve ever worked in because we were all grouped in bullpens that allowed us to easily talk to each other, but shielded us from others, sometimes a little bit too much, but shielded us from others that were not directly related to our work.

I still think about that and I was like, oh man, I want to recreate that at some point.

Mon-Chaio: All right. Now, now we off topic, but I think … any last thoughts, Andy, on remote work burnout?

Andy: I would say that my hypothesis is not supported. There are caveats to that. There are times when remote work and burnout are correlated, but I would say for many things, the work environment can be set up in a way that actually is beneficial, so decreases burnout. But I’ll caveat that with the thing that we were just talking about, which is that does not necessarily mean that it’s a more effective organizational setup.

Mon-Chaio: And I think that is a perfect summary of what should have been a five minute episode, but all our should be five minutes, Andy, except we always talk for way too long.

Andy: It’s because we only know it that it should be five minutes after we’ve done it.

Mon-Chaio: That’s right. And that’s a software development thing. You don’t know what you know, right? That’s why you iterate. Okay. Hope you’ve all enjoyed our insights into the relationship between remote work and burnout. We would love if you want to chat more with us about this topic or any other topic, or if you want to get ahold of us, because you run a team or you run a company and you’re wondering, how do I reduce burnout in a remote work environment? How do I reduce burnout in general? How do I set up my company to be productive and effective and collaborative, given that we’re fully remote?

These are things that we’ve researched a lot. We have a three-episode series on remote work. We have now two episodes on burnout. So get in touch with us. We do consulting. We do help individuals. We do help companies. You can reach us at hosts@thettlpodcast.com. Our other ask would be if you enjoyed this episode and our podcast in general, why not share it with a friend or perhaps a frenemy? Maybe you have a leader that should really be learning this stuff and isn’t. Maybe share us with them. We would always appreciate you passing the word on.

Until next time, be kind and stay curious.

S2E37 – Remote Work, Boundless Burnout?

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